Nahanni National Park: Headless Men & Wild Beauty

Ralf: Would you spend thousands to visit a place with no public roads and dark secrets? Because that’s exactly what awaits you at Canada’s Nahanni National Park.

Lina: From majestic landscapes to the 'Valley of Headless Men,' we are diving into one of Canada's very first World Heritage Sites.

Ralf: Get ready for wild history, even wilder rivers and crucial travel tips. Let’s explore together—right after the intro!

Lina: Welcome to World Heritage Rookies— the podcast where we explore UNESCO World Heritage Sites one episode at a time! We are Lina

Ralf: and Ralf and we will travel alongside you to some of the most stunning sites our world has to offer.

Lina: Each week, we dive into the history, fun facts, and reasons why World Heritage Sites matter for humanity, sharing our own discoveries and travel tips along the way.

Ralf: So, let's dive in and learn about some World Heritage together!

Lina: Welcome everybody to our fifth episode of World Heritage Rookies. If you are new here, we are really happy to have you.

Ralf: And if you are joining us repeatedly from the other episodes, welcome back. We are happy that you are still sticking with us. And today you will have to deal with more of my voice for a longer period again because it is my episode. Are you looking forward Lina to what I'm going to be talking about today?

Lina: I'm really looking forward to it. I know what the place is for sure, but to be honest, this one I don't know much about. So this is going to be a complete discovery for me.

Ralf: I have to admit, for me it was the same when I did the research before. I was like, okay, what's this about? Frankly speaking, also when we thought about the order of these episodes we wanted to make, I was also not aware that this is another World Heritage Site in Canada. So when you're listening, you probably read the title, so I hope it's not that big of a surprise for all of you. But I'm going to present today a bit of information about Nahanni National Park Reserve, which yeah, as I mentioned, is another World Heritage site located within Canada. And perhaps before we start, as usual, with some history and interesting backgrounds about the World Heritage site, the usual question in advance: Lina, what do you know before the start of this episode about Nahanni National Park Reserve?

Lina: It is in Canada, thank you!

Ralf: I think that I can be happy about the fact that I can tell you a lot of things in this episode, because there are actually surprisingly interesting and cool facts about Nahanni National Park Reserve that I was definitely not aware of in the beginning, so you are in for a real treat, I would say.

Lina: I will say I do have one assumption, and it is that it's a natural World Heritage site.

Ralf: That is also, spoilers ahead, really correct. But there is a lot more to it. So it is located in the heart of the Northwest Territories in Canada, which, I know that's a surprise, but in the northwest of Canada. Yeah, I know, and it is generally speaking considered one of the most stunning examples of northern wilderness and a very beautiful landscape in Canada by itself. Okay, so let's start a little bit about the history and the indigenous roots. Generally speaking, the area where today Nahanni National Park Reserve is located is associated with the indigenous people who are called the Dene. The name Dene means actually just "the people" in their actual own native language. And they were known for traditionally inhabiting the area which is also today encompassing Nahanni National Park Reserve. This will be important information to remember for later. And yes, you have a question, I see.

Lina: I do have a question. Are there still indigenous communities in the park?

Ralf: Yes, they are, and this is actually one of the topics that is still discussed for today. So I can actually jump ahead to a bit of information I want to present later. That is the reason why it is called Nahanni National Park Reserve, because there are still some outstanding questions or unresolved questions about the ownership of the indigenous people regarding the whole area. And until today, there are still discussions going on, and that is the reason why the whole area is still called a National Park Reserve. But yes, so they are still linked until today with the area that we are talking about. And the Dene people, they are generally belonging or believed to belong to a very vast cultural-linguistic family that is stretching from all the area of Northern Canada and Alaska and really down until areas in the American Southwest. And actually, archaeological evidence that you have here in these Northwest Territories is suggesting that you have human activity for up to 10,000 years in the past. And traditionally speaking, the Dene people, the indigenous people there, lived a very nomadic lifestyle. So as we know from a lot of the indigenous people before major settler movements came around, they were deeply connected to the land, relying on things like hunting, fishing, trapping, and overall foraging for their survival. And then, as it has been in many places, something changed in the 18th century where you would have for the first time European traders arriving within the area, also altering the way of living for the Dene people around there. So you would suddenly start seeing trading posts and bigger outlets or let's say permanent residences being built up in the area, also affecting the areas that typically were inhabited by the nomadic tribes or families of the Dene people.

Lina: Because you say 18th century—

Ralf: Yes.

Lina: It's still already a little bit late compared to what happened in other communities in the east of Canada and in the east of the United States, right?

Ralf: It is probably late because we have to still think about it: it is very remote, the area we're talking about. So of course, also the whole movement of European settlers around the North American continent, it will take a bit more time to reach the area that we're talking about here. So this is why they had, I would say, a longer period of time where they were not yet influenced by the lifestyle of European settlers, and that's definitely something that also comes into consideration. All the information that I found so far about the Dene people was that they really were able to keep up the majority of their original lifestyle until their lifestyle was influenced by the European settlers. Yeah, and as you then can imagine with all of these more permanent sort of villages, outposts, or trading posts being established, more and more of the Dene families also had to sort of adjust their way of living. So they had to start settling near trading posts, abandoning their nomadic movements. There was still a percentage or a vast part of the Dene who still remained sort of mobile, and they were then traveling around the area. They were actually sort of famous for one thing, which was trading furs, so they would then actually take the travel to all of those permanent trading outposts and offer all of the furs and pelts and animal skins that they hunted. And what I found is very interesting information there: one way they would do this, they would build so-called "moose-skin boats." Can you imagine what this would be like from the name "moose-skin boat"? What would you think this is?

Lina: A moose-skin boat? Well, I will assume the skin of the moose is kind of waterproof, so I guess that they cover the boats in this skin in order to prevent the wood from getting corroded and destroyed by water.

Ralf: Yeah, that's a very good guess, so you are absolutely right about this. What they would do is they would build these boats that were sometimes up to 20 meters long, and they would put six to ten raw moose hides, like you mentioned that are waterproof, stretched this out over a wooden frame, and then used this actually to go down the Nahanni River, which we're going to talk about soon also, which is the namesake of the whole area. And these boats, they were so big that they could carry whole families and also other goods that they would sell. And interesting enough, because the boat itself was made out of skin, a moose skin, they would later disassemble the boat and sell also the moose skin that they used to make the boats, and then make their way back home on foot, for example.

Lina: It's like one of the first times I hear that actually an indigenous community goes so far for profit and to survive in order to continue their way of living.

Ralf: Yeah, and so this was especially a more familiar sight within the 19th century. Like I mentioned, after the arrival of the first European traders in the 18th century, you had more and more interaction via trading in the 19th century. There was still a bigger change in the 20th century, because there was oil and gold discovered, and as you can imagine, that also increased some interest in the overall area in Northern Canada. So obviously, you would have increased European settlement and economic exploitation around there. And that led to the fact that even more of the traditional Dene lifestyle around there, the nomadic way of living, got more and more dismantled. Because more settlements popped up, more and more people arrived there, more and more explorers came around to look for wealthy material, raw materials that had wealth towards them like gold and oil. I think this is also important to mention because this is directly tying into what I mentioned just before: that until today it is still designated, the whole area, as a reserve because there are still decisions to be made about indigenous land claims settlements. And what I actually found as very positive or good information on this matter is that until today, actually, the whole reserve area is co-managed by Parks Canada, which I already mentioned in the sources, but also by the Dehcho First Nations, which is an association that ensures the interests of indigenous people. And this co-management is supposed to ensure that you have on the one hand the ecological preservation part of it ensured with the Parks Canada part, but also the indigenous heritage is considered. And so both of them are making decisions regarding the Nahanni National Park Reserve together to make sure that both sides of interest are actually considered.

Lina: So, it works like a board kind of association, where if a decision has to be made over the park land, they have to sit together and get to an agreement.

Ralf: I would assume so. I did not find any kind of specific descriptions of how it is done, but the sources that I checked out, they mentioned that at the moment it is indeed a co-management because it is recognized the importance that this land or this whole area had towards the indigenous community within Canada. Yes, so this is first about a bit of the historical background of the area that we're going to be talking about today. Going before we come into more specifically the landscape and why it's a World Heritage site, some fun facts and stories. You mentioned before, like how big is this area? By today, the Nahanni National Park Reserve covers about a bit more than 30,000 square kilometers. That means actually that Nahanni National Park Reserve is larger than some countries like Belgium, Haiti, or Rwanda.

Lina: How many little Liechtensteins fit in this park?

Ralf: I have to admit I do not know by heart the size of Liechtenstein, but I will make sure after recording this episode I will find it out so we can perhaps post it on our Instagram. Because that's just a very smooth way to bring in social media marketing! If you want to follow some supporting material or some other insights that we might have for each episode, you will find this in a sort of companion post that you can find on our Instagram @worldheritagerookies. Smooth, right?

Lina: Really smooth. I will make sure to put the map of the park and Liechtenstein.

Ralf: Okay, that is then your job, yeah. But like I said, so it's a pretty huge area. Interesting enough, it was not always this big. So as far as my research showed, apparently the original area was more or less about 5,000 square kilometers, but it was actually expanded by six times in the year 2009 to make sure that this whole reserve area is just covering more space. This jump, interesting enough, occurred when it was already a World Heritage site because, as we also will discuss or as we see, it was inscribed in 1978, the same as L'Anse aux Meadows. So this whole expansion of the original area happened then really in 2009 and it increased massively up to 30,000 square kilometers. So next to, I would say, now more of the statistical facts about its size, there is a surprising amount of legends and sort of spooky stories related to Nahanni National Park, which I have to admit, yeah, when I was starting to research it—because this can sometimes be sort of my guilty pleasure when there are some legends and some myths and some folklore to learn about some spooky things that might lurk in the area. There is a lot of this in Nahanni National Park, so are you ready to learn about some spooky and scary stories?

Lina: What happens if I say no?

Ralf: Then we will have to cut this episode short. Thank you very much for listening! But I hope you're ready for it.

Lina: I am ready. Let's go.

Ralf: So we're first gonna start with, let's say, a bit more like local folklore and legends. I mentioned already before that the area is mostly associated today with the indigenous Dene people, but actually, oral histories from the Dene people describe the whole Nahanni Valley and the area as the homeland of the so-called Naha people. And they were, according to the legends, really a fierce and warlike tribe that would cause a lot of trouble, for example, for the local Dene people. And Naha by itself means apparently in the indigenous language "people of the Nahanni Valley." And they were said to be really famous for raiding nearby settlements, only to later vanish mysteriously, sometimes leaving only smoldering fires and empty camps, which gave them sort of a supernatural aura. And people were discussing they might not be just pure humans, and this is where people would be very scared about them. They do not know really what happened about it, because interesting enough, there was also a story that one time when the Dene people wanted to retaliate against the Naha people, they found the same way that the Naha people left the villages or the camps that they raided, the same happened there. So when they arrived at one of the camps of the Naha, they didn't find anybody there, only just, yeah, it was completely empty, just like some smoldering fires, some empty camps, and that was it. And they suddenly vanished without any trace from the records of the Nahanni Valley. Interesting enough, there's a theory that, as I read in some of my sources, is sort of disputed, where again it's like, okay, just because something is correlated might not be necessarily connected. But apparently, linguistic people have noticed some similarities between the language of the Dene people of this area and the Navajo language, which you will find in America and in the United States. And this has led to some theories that the vanished Naha, they might actually have migrated south from Canada and have become the ancestors of the Navajo Nation today in the United States.

Lina: That's really interesting. Do they have any other evidence apart from the language similarities?

Ralf: It seems really just to be based on the language similarities as far as I found out. Because the Naha, they are sort of like more of a myth associated with the area, there's apparently not that many records. So the majority of the sources that I could find talk about this just being like oral histories that are being passed on by the indigenous people, and this is, like I said, why it's disputed or sort of discussed. But obviously that could be a possible explanation why they were after a while not found anymore within this region, because they actually might have migrated south.

Lina: How interesting. So it was not that they disappeared, it was just they moved out.

Ralf: Potentially. And so this is one theory, and this is like one of the sort of legends associated with the area. The other is a bit more, yeah, spooky, bloody, however you want to call it. So that's also actually a reason why today you will sometimes find the area nicknamed as the "Valley of Headless Men". And the reason for this is that since the early 1900s—if you remember what I told you before, this has then been the time where sort of the gold rush happened there because oil and gold had been discovered in the area—and since the early 1900s, the Nahanni region has been linked to some mysterious and tragic events surrounding decapitations. So it is said that more than 40 explorers and treasure hunters and people looking for gold in the area have either disappeared in the area or they have been found dead, very often decapitated, so with their heads actually missing. And so far, it's assumed that at least six victims were discovered decapitated, their remains only found in some burned-out or abandoned camps. And actually, the most famous case associated with this is two men, actually two brothers from Scotland called Frank and Willie MacLeod. And they were prospecting for gold around the years 1904 to 1905, so the typical area like I mentioned before when there was sort of a bit of a gold rush happening around there. And they disappeared without any trace of what happened. And actually years later, an expedition was headed out—if I remember correctly, it was actually led by another brother of theirs who did not join in the original trip, but I think if I read correctly, he sort of led this expedition to find out what the hell happened with my brothers. And they found their remains, so only their skeletons anymore, the heads missing.

Lina: Completely gone?

Ralf: Completely gone. Have apparently not been found since then. And it was found in an area which would later then become, yeah, Deadmen Valley, and a creek there is called Headless Creek. And until today, it's sort of a big mystery what has happened to them. And quickly after this became known, apparently rumors spread around. For example, that they found something like a hidden El Dorado in the north, like a huge gold mine with vast amounts of gold. And until today, this is sort of a mystery called the Lost MacLeod Mine. And some argue that this might have been the reason why they were killed—by whom, nobody can say, whether for supernatural reasons or greedy competitors. And ironically, this sort of Lost MacLeod Mine sparked another gold rush fever where people were like, "Okay, we want to find this El Dorado of the North." And apparently some of the people who were looking for it met the same fate, so they ended up dead with their heads missing.

Lina: Always in the same area, right?

Ralf: Yeah, in this whole area. So not always in the exact same place, but overall in the same area. And there's like—I mean, after a few of these deaths, you sort of think that perhaps I should not look for this place, I would assume.

Lina: I just think that sometimes, I mean, everything that is gold and magic , they always bring tragedy, so don't try to find them. For some reason, they are hidden.

Ralf: Or disappeared. There have, of course, been a lot of different ideas or theories what might have caused this thing. One thing, what I mentioned before, is some people think perhaps the Naha actually didn't disappear, perhaps this warrior tribe is still around trying to defend their area—this was one possible explanation. There are also some supernatural reasons believed that could be the way, so there is associated with the region a creature which is called the Wahila, which is often described as a sort of huge bear-wolf-like animal which is hunting in the region. And then there's also a regional story about people called the Nuk-luk, not sure how you pronounce it, which are apparently described as small barbarian cave inhabitants that—

Lina: Dwarves?

Ralf: Well, not necessarily dwarves, but actually cannibals. So it is believed that those were wild men or like half-men, whatever, like not fully civilized men in a way, that would then house in caves and go out to hunt and raid for corpses and then eat them.

Lina: But just the heads?

Ralf: Not just the heads, just generally. And then also there is apparently the myth of something called, or like some beings called the Nakani, which apparently is translated to "wild men," which to contrary are terrifying hairy giants that are supposed to kill and eat everybody intruding in their lands. What is interesting, their presence is tied actually to a Dene word which as I understood is linked to the river, and which would translate into the "river of giants."

Lina: How interesting.

Ralf: Yeah. And all of these myths, they sort of earned the area nicknames like Valley of Headless Men, Deadmen Valley. And I'm curious, obviously we will not know the answer, but what do you think could have been the reasons for these disappearances and the headless corpses?

Lina: I don't know, I feel it's interesting to think that maybe the Canadian Bigfoot could be the reason, but of course it could also be just inhabitants that were not interested in having any kind of mining in the area, or also other competitors that were looking for gold and needed a little bit of privacy. I mean, you know, it could be greed, could be some unnatural aspects, but I will assume that it's actually other people looking for gold.

Ralf: Yeah, that's also, I think, if I remember correctly, what was on this blog that I mentioned before of the retired Royal Canadian Mounted Police officer.

Lina: Which, just, I wanted to say it before, but you continued—that sounds like a really interesting life, so I will check it out.

Ralf: I also thought that. I mean, that's quite of a career, right? First being part of the Mounted Police, then becoming now a crime author and apparently also a blogger talking about these areas. And I think it was on his blog that I found the conclusion that that might have been one of the likely explanations. So it could either have been indigenous people or other treasure hunters that were doing this because what better way to scare off further people coming into the area than leaving this kind of really disturbing message? And well, yeah, finding a headless corpse, I assume, would tell the story for a lot of people: perhaps, yeah, I should not go there.

Lina: Yeah, no, for sure. And also, he sounds like an amazing grandpa.

Ralf: I guess he can have a lot of stories to tell. So, yes, these were some of the historic facts and, apart from that, fun facts and stories about the Nahanni National Park Reserve. Now coming to the reason, why is it a World Heritage site? You know the question that's coming, as usual: how many criteria do you think it matches?

Lina: Well, I know natural has four maximum, so I would say between one and two.

Ralf: That's correct, it matches two. So the first one that it matches is criterion number seven, which is the outstanding natural beauty. Generally speaking, the whole Nahanni region is until today celebrated as one of North America's most breathtaking wild river landscapes. What is interesting about the whole area is that the scenery combines really a lot of breathtaking experiences like towering canyons. You have waterfalls that are absolutely breathtaking, you have karst and river formations, you have a wonderful river area that is diving through the mountain landscape around there. And this gives the whole area a feeling of untouched wilderness and uniqueness that is very special to the region. And what are some of the natural highlights that you would find there? First, the namesake of the valley is the South Nahanni River, which if I pronounce it correctly, is in the natural or indigenous tongue of the area also called Nahʔą Dehé, if I pronounce it correctly I hope. This river is generally considered the heart of the park and until today is a very popular destination for wild water rafting. And it originates in the Mackenzie Mountains area and is carving through the whole area that we have in this place, through the landscape, and is then really giving rise to some of those, yeah, spectacular canyons and other formations. So this is the main natural part of this whole area.

Lina: It has to be beautiful.

Ralf: Yes, but apparently also quite dangerous from what I learned. So there are areas there for wild water rafting that are considered quite dangerous and like only for very experienced rafters. So it has apparently really some pretty dangerous areas to it.

Lina: So it's not rafting for everybody.

Ralf: It's not rafting for everybody, as I understood, no, so you have to definitely know what you're doing. Then another highlight is probably also one of the park's most iconic landmarks, which is called Virginia Falls, which are dropping from a height of 92 meters down, which is nearly twice the height of Niagara Falls, which I assume is a bit more popular or well-known. But they're also one of the most stunning natural beauties that you will find in this park. And apart from that, you have deep and wonderful canyons. Like I mentioned before, the river slices through this whole rugged terrain there. And sometimes there are canyons that are actually going up to 1,000 meters deep. And this is then really still coming and also showing some remains of all the natural events that have been going on there since the last ice age glaciation, and the really unique landscapes that you find there through canyons, which I took some look at the pictures of. So I hope you can also find some of them perhaps for our Instagram—it really seems like it's from another world.

Lina: So it's a place to visit, especially for the adventures that like nature and hiking and maybe some extreme sports as well.

Ralf: Definitely. So I will tell a bit more about this in the later part about the travel tips. Apart from that, the waterfall, the river, and the canyons, we also have, like I mentioned before, some karst formations made out of this natural stone that yeah, really create really fascinating limestone landscapes that are full of sinkholes, little ridges, and like hidden passageways. You have also different cave systems around there that apparently, as I heard, can also be really beautiful, like shimmering when it gets colder with ice crystals. They have some really breathtaking formations of stalactites and stalagmites, which I always forget which are the ones going up and which are the ones going down. And last but not least, the area is also famous for its hot springs and tufa mounds made out of soft rock. The area has around 250 geothermal vents that are feeding the whole region's mineral water areas, and the so-called Rabbitkettle Hot Springs are actually Canada's largest tufa mounds, which are built by all of these mineral-rich flows that you will have coming from all the hot springs around.

Lina: Is there any kind of like spa treatment activities that you can also do?

Ralf: What I found there is not really like a typical spa because it's a really remote area, so you will have tour guides that apparently bring you around there. And I did not see if you can bathe in them or go in, but you will not find like a typical five-star resort around there because it's a really remote area. And yes, this is also sort of playing into the second criterion it matches, which is criterion number eight: Earth's geological story in motion. So the whole area is a living showcase of active geological processes, which makes it a natural laboratory in a way to understand some of the forces that shape our planet. Like I mentioned before, you have this part erosion by a body of water which is creating deep canyons, you will have the mountain ranges by themselves which are the influence of tectonic uplift and folding—yeah, all of these huge mountain ranges that you have around there—the influence of wind over the karst formations and the erosion it has with it, and also this formation of the karst and similar landforms from the different sinkholes to vast underground chambers is really just a very interesting combination for geological research. And these are the two criteria that it meets.

Lina: I guess that it also helps that it is so remote, allowing them to do a lot of research on geological analysis in the area.

Ralf: Yeah, and this is actually a very, very smooth transition to the last part of this episode, which is the travel tips, which starts with the fact that it is really, really, really remote. So it's generally considered as one of Canada's most remote park areas. There seem to be no public roads that are leading into the park, so you cannot drive there. The way you can get there is either you can charter a so-called floatplane, which will go from various places there—apparently the most common used is a place called Fort Simpson, which is also home to the main park office. You can apparently also, when you're experienced, enter the area by a canoe or kayak or theoretically hike into there, but obviously because it's so super remote, this is something that you need experience for. And as a result, the whole tourism there is like really limited. I found various sources that state that you have only a few hundred or perhaps a low number of thousands of visitors in Nahanni each year. The reason for this is not just then, of course, the remoteness, but it's also it's very expensive to get in there if you are not able to do it by yourself, which you should be only when you're really experienced and know what you're doing. And that brings us actually to some other topics that are to consider. First, you can mostly only travel there during the period of early June to late September. The peak conditions apparently to kayak or to do river boating on the river are typically late June to early September, because remember, we're talking here about Canada, really north of Canada. So in the winter, it gets really winter, I can assume, and then that sort of challenging or dangerous area could become even more challenging. And if you want to stay there overnight, you need to make a reservation first in order to make sure that, well, the very unique and fragile environment is protected, but also for safety reasons obviously. So that you can register when you want to go in and deregister when you're going out, to make sure that everybody who goes in also is accounted for. And yeah, the typical experience what you have there is what I found—I did some research about potential trips that you could take there, obviously not comparing a lot of different providers, but to get just like a rough feeling of what is done. So I found generally like two main routes or main ways of experience: first, river expeditions, so you would have multi-day tours that would go either by canoe, kayak, or raft that will bring you to some of the major landmarks, like for example going down the river towards Virginia Falls and going through the canyons that make this whole park so unique. The typical costs of those are, as I understood, about 10,000 Canadian dollars, which translates to roughly 7,100 US dollars for a 10-to-14-day group expedition. And if I read it correctly, that's the price per person.

Lina: Okay.

Ralf: Yeah.

Lina: Quite pricey.

Ralf: Yeah, but you have to understand it like, yeah, it's a unique place, but also it is what you need to be able to survive for a while. So you need to bring everything with you like your camping equipment, obviously your canoeing or boating equipment, all of the food, all of the water. So obviously you have to come prepared, and you need, I assume, a really specialized guide who knows what they are doing. If you're not up for that, or if you say, "Okay, this is nothing for me," the most typical thing is like flightseeing tours via a floatplane, which is ideal for shorter visits. So you will often then go on a scenic flight that goes with you through all the highlights, also the canyons, the waterfall, some glacier lakes. This seems to be, as I understood, if you are renting out one of those floatplanes, which is typically for three to four passengers, that will cost you about 2,300 Canadian dollars or about 1,600 US dollars for the whole plane, as I understood.

Lina: For a day.

Ralf: Yeah, so this is really just a day trip which allows you to see more in a shorter period of time. And obviously, just in quotation marks from above, even though I heard that they will actually be able to land on some of the highlights and just let you quickly go out there because it's a really small plane, but obviously still you will mostly see the area there from the air. And lastly, if you are up for it, yeah, you can go there as a climber, so you can do some mountaineering and alpine adventures. You can go there by yourself, but obviously just when you have the experience and when you're really able to deal with this extreme kind of nature.

Lina: Does Parks of Canada have any level of limitation of how they will assure that you have the experience to go by yourself?

Ralf: Thats's a very good question that I honestly cannot answer. I assume that when you have to register and deregister, you will might have to provide also the information on how you're entering, but I hope people who are going there are making sure that they have the respective level of experience. But yeah, in the end, you can never be 100 percent sure. Yes, so I think the last things to mention also, just about some fun facts what makes it even more challenging: the whole area there is grizzly and wolf territory. So also this means, well, you have to follow strict bear safety protocols and to be prepared for any kind of wildlife connection, so be aware of this. Also, you're not allowed to bring any kind of drones into the park to ensure that the nature is not being harmed in any way. I read actually that if you're bringing it and you're caught, that can cost you up to 25,000 Canadian dollars, so they're really, really ensuring this. Just don't. And speaking of all of this, if we would not have to worry about money, would you prefer to go through it with a day trip via an airplane or would you actually prefer to go on a one- or two-week kayak or river tour?

Lina: Knowing you, Ralf, and that you don't even kayak, it will be really hard to take the 10-day adventure. So I will say for us, just because for our audience, my husband is a little princess sometimes and he wants to travel well.

Ralf: Well, I will not be able to say no to this because it's true. But actually, if you wouldn't have to worry about me, your little husband princess, if it were just about you, what would Lina do? Would she prefer to have an airplane or would she go on a one- or two-week kayak tour?

Lina: Well, I do not mind to be on the one- or two-week tour, I would say. Nevertheless, I do have to admit that the plane around the park sounds nice. Maybe the only thing that I will regret is that it's only one day. So if it's possible to actually, as you say, if money is not the restriction, I will maybe try to go several days and maybe try to explore a little bit more. But otherwise, I would take the two weeks' trip. And you?

Ralf: I mean, I know my own limitations. I know two weeks in nature would probably kill me, doesn't matter how experienced the guide is. But apart from that, I honestly have to say, just from my own experience, what I had—the few experiences about flight tours about some stunning sights in the world, I really, really enjoyed them because they offer you such a unique perspective. So one of the best experiences I was lucky enough to have in my life was a flight over the Nazca Lines, and this was, I mean, by far one of the most stunning experiences that I have ever had because the perspective is just so unique. Obviously, the Nazca Lines is something also specific to watch from the air, but I can imagine that flying over Nahanni National Park and then seeing really just the whole vastness of the wilderness around there, it sounds amazing. So for me, the flight, because I think I would enjoy the experience more and also because I know I would not be up for the wilderness by itself.

Lina: Just for you, for everybody to know one time I proposed Ralf to go in a tent and go. I mean, we live in Germany and here hiking and camping is something that pretty much all the population does, and he was like, "No, thank you."

Ralf: Yeah, I'm bringing shame to any of my ancestors who were really into hiking, but yeah, no, not my favorite activity, I will admit. Shame on me. So yes, that's, I think, the surprising amount of fascinating facts also for me that I found about Nahanni National Park Reserve.

Lina: I like that it's so remote.

Lina: Yeah, because— The people that go there—and we want to hear about if any of you had already visited, that would be super nice to hear your experience at @worldheritagerookies. Maybe it's like if it's worth it, and I think that it has to be, because you don't do that kind of trip if you don't know, if you are unsure that you're going to have an amazing experience.

Ralf: Yes, I think also it's probably a really, really amazing experience, one you need to have really some dedication to. I'm not sure if we will ever be able to come there because it's that remote, but from what I heard from the people that were there, it was a really fascinating trip. But yeah, so I'm happy that you seem to have liked it. I hope that also all of our listeners enjoyed it and could learn perhaps something new. Next week it's again your turn. Do you want to give a little information or tease what you're gonna talk about?

Lina: Well, I can say we are gonna jump back to Europe, and this one is actually the first World Heritage site that I visited on my own and that Ralf has not visited. So it's quite—it's gonna be quite interesting for him I am pretty sure and for everyone of you, so please tune in, looking forward to it.

Ralf: Thank you very much, everybody, and see you next time.

Lina: Bye!

Ralf: Goodbye.