Gorée Island: Senegal's Memorial to the Slave Trade

Ralf: Off the coast of Senegal sits Gorée Island and for centuries it was one of the last places enslaved Africans saw before being shipped across the Atlantic.

Lina: Nelson Mandela, Pope John Paul II and Barack Obama have all made the visit to a place that became one of the first World Heritage Sites in 1978.

Ralf: We've gathered the history, the controversy and essential travel tips for this island of remembrance of one of the biggest tragedies in human history. Let's step onto Gorée right after the intro.

Lina: Welcome to World Heritage Rookies, the podcast where we explore UNESCO World Heritage Sites one episode at a time. We are Lina

Ralf: and Ralf, and we will travel alongside you to some of the most stunning sites our world has to offer.

Lina: Each week we dive into the history, fun facts and reasons why World Heritage Sites matter for humanity, sharing our own discoveries and travel tips along the way.

Ralf: So, let's dive in and learn about some World Heritage together.

Lina: Welcome, everybody, to our episode number 11. If you're new here, welcome. I know we say it every episode, but we really appreciate new audience, and we're really happy to have you here. And here I am with...

Ralf: Ralf. And also we say it every episode, but if you're back, also, thank you very much for this and sticking with us talking about World Heritage Sites.

Lina: So, today it's completely on Ralf. So, Ralf, what are we going to be talking today about?

Ralf: Today we're going to talk about the island of Gorée, which I think will have a special place in our episodes so far, because it's the first World Heritage Site where we mostly focus on something that is not like a natural wonder or natural beauty or like a great cultural achievement or cultural marvel we can look at — it's actually something about remembering one of the worst events that happened in human history. I think it's an interesting take, telling that World Heritage Sites are not here just to celebrate what is great — they are also there to help us remember what might not be great, but is still part of our human history.

Lina: I think that that's a really interesting take, indeed. It's the first place in memory of a horrible event, but at the same time, I think that sometimes these memorial sites we visit are some of the most interesting, because they are really there to remind us what we could do if we don't remember what we have done through history.

Ralf: Yes, exactly. And this is a good example of what we are going to talk about today, and I think you will find it quite interesting, because I personally learned a lot about something that I was not that familiar with as I should be, which is again a good sign that we get to think about these horrible events, and could learn about it through a World Heritage Site. But I also have to admit, I think this is so far the episode where I'm most conflicted about, because I don't want to give away too much, but there has been some kind of controversy going on with Gorée Island and what it entails and what it means, and I'm going to come back to this later — that was something very interesting for me also during the research, so I'm very curious later to hear your thoughts about it. But, yes, perhaps, before we jump into more of the details — as usual, Lina, what do you know about the island of Gorée?

Lina: Absolutely nothing, thank you so much.

Ralf: Okay, then...

Lina: I don't really know anything. This one I'm going completely blank.

Ralf: Then I'm very happy that I will, for sure, be able to teach you something in this episode, and hopefully also to our audience. All right, so — history of the island of Gorée. So, first, to know what we're talking about: Gorée Island is a tiny island — apparently only about 900 meters long and 350 meters wide — and it's just right off the coast of Senegal's capital, Dakar. So, yeah, we're talking here about a World Heritage Site in the country of Senegal. And the name Gorée is a French adaptation of the original Dutch name given to the island, which was apparently Goede Reede, or however you pronounce it in Dutch — my Dutch is not the best — and apparently this name is derived from a word in Dutch which means good anchorage, signifying that it's a safe place for ships to anchor around there. So, it's an island right off the coast of Senegal, and it has been very, very important over the centuries, because it really is basically on the western part of Africa, and therefore is somewhat the closest possible to the Americas, because when you're traveling around there — and, sort of as a result of this, it became a really important point for different European colonial powers around.

Lina: So it was like a safe post before arriving to the Americas?

Ralf: Yeah, it was a good place to anchor for your ships — well, we're still talking about a long journey to the Americas, but it was one of the closest possible positions you could be with your ships before traveling to the Americas.

Lina: Before crossing the Atlantic.

Ralf: Yeah. And nothing surprising there when you can imagine, because of this strategic position, it has been changing hands between the different colonial powers. So the first bigger colonial power that was in control of it were actually the Portuguese, in the 15th century — they reached the island in the 1440s, built there early houses, and actually began to export enslaved Africans from the year 1536 onward. So this is already showing, unfortunately, what it was used for from early on. And over the following centuries, the possession of the island changed multiple times — you had the Dutch, the British, the Portuguese, and the French owning the island over various times in the centuries, because of its important strategic position. For the longest time, it was governed mostly by the French, and the French were also, if I saw it correctly, the last owners before it actually got handed back after independence. So, yeah — the French were the ones that had, in the end, the most influence in the whole area. This is also why it's still today having the French name, Gorée Island. And as a bit of a background — I already teased it — it held a very important role in one of the greatest tragedies we've had in human history, which is the transatlantic slave trade. So, as a bit of background — because this was also, generally speaking, something I knew about, but I wanted to give a little bit more information on what we're talking about there — what is called the transatlantic slave trade is the multiple events that took place from the mid-1500s up to the 1860s, where European slavers forcibly shipped around 12.5 million Africans onto transatlantic ships. It's estimated that about 11 million of those survived the passage to the Americas — which, just thinking about the pure numbers, means about 1.5 million people died just on the voyage to the Americas, not even talking about the tragedy and horrors those people then faced once they arrived in the Americas. And the transatlantic slave trade involved captives being taken from dozens of coastal regions spanning west and central Africa. And this was, unfortunately, something that shaped for a very, very long time the history of Gorée as an important collection, holding, and also embarkation point in this whole vast system of the slave trade. So this is a bit of the bigger historical event that shaped part of this island's history, unfortunately. And it is assumed that for more than 300 years the island of Gorée was involved in the capture, detention, and deportation of enslaved Africans. In the end, slavery was abolished in the year 1848 by the French, and ironically, this is also when the role of the island diminished, because its main importance, unfortunately, was still tied to this. So what I also learned is that it wasn't just slaves that were shipped there — it was in general a trading area, so other products were traded there too — but it's known, unfortunately, until today mainly for its role in the slave trade. And, yeah, so slavery was abolished by the French in 1848, and when today's capital of Senegal, Dakar, was founded in 1857 — you have to see it on a map, Gorée is really, really super close to Dakar, I think it's about three kilometers of distance — so, as you can imagine, when Dakar was founded, it became bigger and more important, and then Gorée lost its economic and administrative influence, shifting more towards its historical remembrance and importance, which is what we know it especially for today.

Lina: So, basically, in Gorée — if I'm understanding correctly — there was a lot of appropriation of African people... draft to Gorée, and then there was, like, a market, and different powers from around the world would just buy slaves there? Or how did this transaction work?

Ralf: If I understood correctly, it was not necessarily a market — it was more of a transit point. So, you would bring people from various places around to Gorée, which was, then, unfortunately, one of the central points where they were afterwards loaded onto slave ships going to the Americas. I did not find any details on whether there were markets as such, but also considering the size of the island, I think it was mostly a hub where you would then transfer people...

Lina: ...to bigger ships, I guess.

Ralf: Yeah, transfer them onward — but this is actually something I'm going to talk about later, which also indication into the sort of discussion that Gorée entails. But, yeah, so it was mostly because of its location — it would be a point where people would be transferred over to the Americas as slaves.

Ralf: And, yes, so, when it lost its administrative and economic importance over the following years and decades, it shifted more towards preservation and memory as the island's main function. So, first, it was declared a historic site by Senegal in 1944, by the colonial administration — I think, 1944, I don't know if Senegal was already independent, so I assume it might have still been under French administration at that point. And then in 1978, it was inscribed as a UNESCO World Heritage Site, recognized as exceptional testimony to one of humanity's greatest tragedies, which is, like I mentioned before, the transatlantic slave trade. And today, this is the main role it still serves — it's home to about 2,000 residents, and it's actually Senegal's most visited heritage site. It serves globally as a memorial to the horror of the slave trade, and it's generally considered a place of reconciliation and remembrance for the African diaspora and the tragedy that befell the African people because of the slave trade.

Lina: Something that surprised me is the amount of people that actually lived on the island, for being so small.

Ralf: Yeah, as I understood it, there are a lot of local artisans, and also people working in tourism a bit — I think there are two or three hotels around, a few restaurants, so you still have people living there — but, yeah, it's obviously nothing to compare with Dakar or anything else, but, like you mentioned, it's also a very small island still. And, yeah, and also coming back to it being important as a memorial site — it's not just a place that people interested in the topic, or who might have a connection to it, would visit — it's actually a place where you will see, in the past, a lot of world leaders come to show respect to all the victims of this terrible tragedy. So, for example, you would have Nelson Mandela, you would have Pope John Paul II, and Barack Obama coming there to show respect and remember the people and the whole of the suffering that occurred to them.

Ralf: And, that is actually also a good transition to explaining why it is a UNESCO World Heritage Site. What do you think — what could be the number of criteria that it matches?

Lina: The number of criteria that it matches — for sure, remember, it's a site that remembers history, and a dark part of history, but a history nonetheless. So, maybe because of its nature, I would say two.

Ralf: Close — it's actually only one. But what you mentioned is criteria number six, so it is tied to historical events — in this case, absolutely true, a horrible event — because it's directly tied to one of the greatest human tragedies, the transatlantic slave trade. And I actually want to read here the statement you can find on the official UNESCO website explaining why it meets criteria six: "The island of Gorée is an exceptional testimony to one of the greatest tragedies in the history of human societies, the slave trade. The various elements of this memory island — fortresses, buildings, streets, squares, etc. — recount, each in its own way, the history of Gorée, which from the 15th to the 19th century was the largest slave trading center of the African coast." And this is framing why it's so significant, but it's also what I want to mention already here — especially this last part — that it was the largest slave trading center of the African coast. This is going to come back later when I'm talking about the controversy, when it comes to...

Lina: I do have a question, though. That means the infrastructure on the island of Gorée — is it still, um, a resemblance of the slave trade? So all the houses that were used for the trading — what you said, like the walls, and, and...

Ralf: I do not know if it's all that used to be, but you for sure still find buildings from colonial times and the slave trading times around there. So there are fortresses, and also houses that were associated with the slave trade. This is what you still find there, yes.

Ralf: One of them is — the most famous, probably, is actually called the House of Slaves, or the Maison des Esclaves, in French — again, sorry for butchering my French.

Lina: We do that in every episode.

Ralf: I know — for some reason, every episode has some French elements. So this is actually the most famous element, probably, that you have on the island. It was supposedly built between the year 1776 and 1784. And it is, until today, considered the most emotionally charged site on Gorée. It has become really famous, or well-known, for its long-time curator, a man known as Boubacar Joseph Ndiaye — I hope I pronounced that someway correctly — because he claimed that millions of enslaved Africans passed through this house. It had also something which is called a "Door of no Return", which is a really simple just cut-out door in the walls, which faces the Atlantic Ocean and it symbolizes the last moment enslaved Africans would see their homeland before they were deported on ships to the Americas.And it is said that visitors of the House of Slaves, especially if they have any kind of relation to the African diaspora, they will experience deep personal or emotional reactions to the site and to this gentleman's storytelling. I think he died a few years ago, so he's not alive anymore, but he's still largely credited for shaping the influence of Gorée Island and the House of Slaves, and the importance it holds as a memorial. And a short tip — you can visit the website I mentioned before, the Zamani Project, which offers a virtual 3D tour of the House of Slaves, so you can go through it and check it out a little bit. I did this myself while researching this episode, to get a bit of an understanding. It's obviously not exactly how it really looked, since it's mostly turned into a memorial site now, but you can check it out and get a bit of a feeling for the place without having to actually visit Gorée Island.

Ralf: And, yes, this is actually now where the difficult part of this episode comes for me, because—

Lina: The slavery part not?

Ralf: No — that's... that's not what I meant. But this is now where, for me, it gets difficult, because, as you'll learn from this right now, this place has a really deep, symbolic meaning for everybody who is affected, or who just wants to know about this horrible tragedy. I would like to ask you a question in advance, before I give you more of the information of what became a bit difficult about it for me, which is about the question: symbolic significance versus historical data and records. So, if a place becomes a global symbol of suffering, as is now the case with Gorée Island, do you think it matters whether every part of the story is historically precise and accurate, or can just the symbolic truth be enough for it to achieve the kind of status that, for example, Gorée Island has?

Lina: I think that when you're asking that question, it's obvious that it's related to the fact that maybe it's not the biggest, or didn't have the biggest concentration of slaves in the slave market of Africa, which means some of the data behind its importance is probably not accurate. Nevertheless, for me, it's more important the symbol. Why? I mean, in the end of the day, what a symbol or a memorial intends to do is actually bring to the new generation this information — somehow bring what are the consequences of believing that certain races are over other races. And I think that, as a symbolic nature, it should be conserved, even though — I mean, probably that's the reason why you're asking — not all the historical information is accurate or can be proven.

Ralf: That's a very good guess that you have, because this is exactly what the sort of controversy that I found online is about. So, I think we both agree, and what's very important to state, is that you cannot put any kind of number on suffering. Nobody is debating here the horrors of anything associated with the transatlantic slave trade — that's clear for both of us. You cannot put any kind of number on this.

Lina: Also, I think that the more memorials there are, the better. So, I even think that, like — even if it's not the biggest trade center of slaves — just the fact that it existed needs to be brought to reality and conserved as it is. As a symbol.

Ralf: I will quickly guide you through the information I found online about what caused this controversy, and I'm just curious to see if this would change your opinion in any way — I do not think it will, but I'd be curious. So, exactly as you mentioned — the first thing some historians disagree on is the volume of the slave traffic. Especially when you remember what UNESCO said in its reasoning, that it was "the largest slave trading center of the African coast" — this is by some historians not supported, who argue that there are a lot of places that might fit that description better. I don't want to go into any specific numbers, because, as I mentioned, it doesn't matter in the end how much — but there are historians who say it did not have its significance in numbers or was not the largest trading port, as it's often shown to be at the moment.

Lina: Do you know — could you research what the other sites are that could actually have this title, or the biggest concentration of the slave market from the African continent?

Ralf: So, what I've found is that, apparently, two ports — one is called St. Louis, and the other is called James Ford — are also thought to have been among the largest ports when it comes to the transatlantic slave trade. I assume there have, unfortunately, been a lot of places that were involved with this, and we're talking about millions of people, over centuries of time and, unfortunately, there really were large-scale trading businesses with human life. But, from what I've found in the research, those two ports are often cited as the ones that might have had larger numbers of slaves actually transported to the Americas.

Lina: Well, I think that if it's about UNESCO specific information, I would say — yes, it would be nice to have a little bit more accuracy, like, "it's one of the places that had the most role in the traffic to the Americas" — that would be a little more accurate. But, in the end of the day, I think that these three places would actually deserve to be memorials. I don't know if they are, but that would be the expectation, even if only one can have the final title from UNESCO. I mean, I think that this is a big question, and I think that this is something we've discussed in the past — that one of the things that makes a World Heritage site special sometimes is their uniqueness, and maybe if it's not the only one, and it could be controversial to actually have the title, but at the same time, they are a memorial — they need to be conserved, they need to be brought to the new generation. So maybe it could even be a bundle, you know — there are many sites that commemorate different places at the same time.

Ralf: That's a good idea, that could be another approach, like — multiple port towns that were unfortunately involved in this,

Lina: Exactly.

Ralf: That's a good take — especially in recent years, you'll have a lot of different multi-location sites. I think at the time when Gorée was inscribed — of course, it was the first year of the UNESCO World Heritage Sites — that might not have been a consideration yet. But that's actually a good take, as a way of thinking about how this question of the accuracy of UNESCO's statement could be solved. Obviously, this is also something that's discussed in the World Heritage traveling community — and, so, yeah, and the controversy that I also found is not just about the island of Gorée by itself, but also actually about the House of Slaves. So there seem to be some historians who argue that the house was not really a trading point, or a point where slaves were put onto ships, but that it was the private house of a wealthy family, and there were most likely slaves there, but they were also most likely domestic slaves serving the family, and not captives awaiting their deportation. And there's apparently a discussion that the portrayal by this long-time curator I mentioned before has shaped the narrative of the house and its importance in that way, so that it's now remembered as a memorial associated with slave deportation, rather than because it actually served that function in the past. And that's something I found interesting, because when I was checking at some reports from travelers and also from this World Heritage traveling community that we like to visit, some visitors seem to be really put off by the fact that it's presented like this when you go on tours around there. But, obviously, there are also people who — when you would actually bring up this kind of discussion to the people around there — well, that's obviously not well received at all. I think I saw one comment saying that if you were to confront a guide with this fact, "hey, it's not really sure if it had this function," that's apparently treated the same as if you were denying that there was the Holocaust — really saying, how can you even question what happened around there? And that is also conflicting for me, because, on the one hand, I like to be sure that I get accurate information about a place, but on the other hand — well, who am I to decide what a site means as a memorial to the people who were actually affected by it?

Lina: That's exactly the point, and I think that — as something my husband recently said to me — "read the room." You know what I mean? Like, these kinds of debates can be made in an academic kind of situation, when we're actually talking about accuracy and historical accuracy, or in other kinds of, like, online discussions. But sometimes I feel like people really don't know how to read the room. And if you go to a place that has been so affected by something so horrible for generations — where probably everybody on that island had someone, a generation before, or two generations before, or three generations before, who was sent to the Americas — even if it really is not accurate, you have to really be careful, because you're really kind of saying, like, "yeah, but this may not be true," you know what I mean? So — and it's true, maybe it's not the truth, but it's the symbol. Again, we come back to — for me at least, this is my personal opinion — the symbol matters most in this case, more than the historical accuracy.

Ralf: I think, for me, as somebody, if I were visiting the island, I would like to know about this debate, but I would also say, out of respect for the people there, and for what it means, I would not bring it up. I could still make the choice, if I'm going to the island — if it really bothers me how it's portrayed — I might not visit the House of Slaves, because I can make up my own choice, and then if I disagree with how it might be presented, and both sides of the historical discussion aren't shown, then I won't go. But I think I agree with you there, in the sense that I truly won't rub it into somebody's face, in a way — telling them, "hey, by the way, you can't be sure about this." This here is about respect. And it's become so clear how important Gorée is for millions and millions of people affected by this horrific event in history — who am I to put this in any kind of question, to say, like, "okay, that's not okay"? So, I think it's good to know about it, and to just be, in a way, an educated traveler, but also be respectful, in the end, to the people.

Lina: And also, I think that it's important to remember that these millions of people actually saw their land one last time, at some point. And I think that this is probably what I would take out of this house — at some point, in a boat already, or maybe on this island, or maybe somewhere else.

Ralf: It might not have been Gorée, but — yeah.Millions of people. Even if they were not in the Door of No Return to take a last look at their land of origin, they have had a place, where they were for the last time able to see their home.

Lina: Their home, their land, their family — the people that matter most. And I think that this is the symbol of this house: being able to feel how it felt for these millions of Africans, the last time that they saw it, and to think that they would never see it again. For many generations, it was so obvious, especially after 100 years of slavery, that they were not going to come back.

Ralf: But you can now understand a bit what was tough in the research, because i really like to get into the historical details and that gives you here an emotional discussion.The importance of what we discussed.

Ralf: Symbolism versus historical accuracy — and I think the lesson I took from this research is that it's not always a black-and-white question. It's not about it having to be 100% one thing or 100% the other. Obviously, the best case is if it can somehow manage both. But sometimes it becomes a difficult question.

Lina: I think that this is going to be a constant question, especially for the World Heritage sites that are actually memorials to something horrible — we have plenty of them, and we will have plenty of these questions in the future. But I think at the same time we need to have an equilibrium between what is real and what it means. And sometimes this line is going to be blurred, and sometimes we have to understand and accept it. As travelers, I would say it's our responsibility to know the history and to probably create our own point of view on how we see things, but we also have the responsibility to respect the places we visit. These are two things that can happen at the same time. We need to be clear about where and when we're sharing our point of view, and with what audience — that's important too. So, I think that we, as tourists and travelers, have a lot of responsibility, and sometimes we're not as outspoken about it as we should be. It's our responsibility to take care of the place, to respect what it means, even if it's not 100% historically exact, and to know where we can share what we think.

Ralf: I think that's a nice closing paragraph to this kind of discussion.

Lina: Thank you. Goodbye.

Ralf: Not to the episode, no — still something to come.

Lina: Ah, sorry.

Ralf: Still something to come. But I think it's a nice summary point of the discussion, and of what you need to be aware of.

Ralf: And since you mentioned travelers already, I think I'll take this now as a natural transition point to go into some of the information what you should know if you want to visit the island of Gorée.

Lina: The tips.

Ralf: The tips, indeed. Okay — you do it better. So, yeah — how do you get to Gorée Island? So, as I mentioned...

Lina: By boat.

Ralf: Yes, you do. So, as I mentioned, it's really close to the capital of Senegal, Dakar, so you can reach it via ferry, which departs multiple times per day from Dakar's Gare Maritime — that's the boat station, I think, would be the English translation. I'd suggest that when you're actually going there, check the updated schedules online, because I don't know how up to date what I found is by the time you're listening to this episode. But, on average, the boats leave every one to two hours — they start quite early in the morning and run pretty late. It takes about 25 to 30 minutes to go from Dakar to the island, and you should normally arrive an hour before your departure, so you can buy tickets or navigate the queues, which are apparently longer on weekends where it is more busy on general. What I found as an important piece of information is that you must show a physical passport to buy or use a ticket — photocopies are not accepted. I know this might be relevant for some travelers like us, who don't always bring physical passports to these kinds of locations, only copies. At the time of recording, the cost is about 11 US dollars, or nine-something euros, per passenger for foreign visitors. It's normally recommended that you plan it as a day trip from Dakar — you can stay on Gorée Island itself, it has a few small hotels, if you want a quieter or more atmospheric experience and want to explore a bit of the island at night — but generally, if you just want to visit the most important sites of the island, a day trip is enough.

Ralf: And, yeah, about some of the must-visit places, which ties back to the question you had before about the infrastructure — can you still see the remains of the colonial times? So, as mentioned before, the House of Slaves and the Door of No Return is probably the most famous site you'll find there. It's apparently closed on Mondays, but open the rest of the week. The entry fee, at the time of recording, is about one US dollar, so pretty cheap. And, next to this, you can also just stroll around the island itself — explore the streets, the life, and the architecture, which still has a really colonial atmosphere, as I saw it. You have houses with pastel facades, really interesting details around there. You can visit open-air art galleries and craft stalls where local artisans sell paintings — it apparently has a really artistic atmosphere around there. You can go to waterfront restaurants serving fresh seafood and classic Senegalese dishes — I got a recommendation that you should go there and eat chicken yassa, which is apparently chicken with onion sauce and rice, and sounds super tasty.

Lina: That sounds delicious.

Ralf: Yes. And, next to this, you can also go to fortifications — for example, you can climb to the island's highest point, which is often called the Castle, where two French cannons from the Second World War still stand. And you can also visit the Gorée Almadies Memorial at the southern tip, which is a concrete monument dedicated to the victims of the slave trade — apparently, the cliffside there also has a really nice view of the whole island. There's also something on the island called the Statue of the Liberation of Slaves, which is a sculpture of a man and a woman embracing as their chains fall away. You have the Historical Museum of Senegal, housed in an ancient fortress built in the 19th century — this museum presents the broader history not only of Gorée Island, but also of Senegal.

Lina: That sounds so nice! I feel like it would be the perfect day trip, especially thinking that I was not expecting it to have so many museums on the island. So — again, really small island, and it's really impressive the amount of museums and historical places you can actually visit.

Ralf: It does. So, yeah, that was, I think, so far the most haunting site in a way — tackling one of the most horrific events we've had in human history.

Ralf: Coming a little bit to a verdict, because I think we obviously know that World Heritage Sites are something important for us to visit, but on the other hand, there are, by now, so many. So, I thought I'd like to ask you that question — we have here our app where we're tracking our wish list of World Heritage Sites we should visit in the next five years. Is Gorée Island making it onto your list or not?

Lina: I would say yes, but I have a really specific reason — the fact that I didn't know about it before. I mean, of course, I'm Colombian — we received a lot of slaves from Africa, a lot, especially to work in the sugar plantations, especially in the north of Colombia. And I think it's really surprising to me how little I know about this period of time. I mean, of course, I know how the liberation happened for Afro-Colombians, but at the same time, I don't know much about their time, or the generations before them, in Africa. It's very concerning, in a certain way, for myself — like, come on, Lina, you should know. I mean, of course I know about the Conference of Berlin, when the colonial powers pretty much divided up the territory of Africa, but after that, what I know is really little. And I think it should be on my top list to learn more about these horrible times, because it was so long, and it actually shaped who I am today. So, yes, I would say yes, it is on the list, and it would be really bad if it weren't.

Ralf: We're going to come back in five years and see if we actually made it to Gorée Island by then. But that's a very fair point — I can only say, it never would have crossed my mind that this would be a reason. But, on the other hand, we don't have the same cultural background, which I think is one of the interesting parts of this podcast, and our different perspectives on it. So, never would have thought it, but it makes absolute sense.

Lina: Well — never say never.

Ralf: Never say never, yeah.

Lina: And I am waiting for you guys, our audience, to promote the podcast so we can go to Senegal anytime soon.

Ralf: Wow.

Lina: Please do not forget to visit us @worldheritagerookies our Instagram account. And, thank you so much — see you next time.

Ralf: Yes, next time is going to be an episode from you, Lina, right? Do you want to spoil a little bit what we're going to talk about?

Lina: No, no, no. I think that it's going to be, going a little bit outside of, like, sad historical events — but not so much. So, we're in there a little bit.

Ralf: Well, then I'm looking forward to it. Until then, thank you everybody, and goodbye!

Lina: Goodbye!